[22:09:59] <NYY2NYM5|B7> Do you remember where we left off earlier in our talk about Azula, Mai and Ty Lee?
[22:10:17] <Ultimate> Yeah, we were talking about the Boiling Rock.
[22:10:24] * NYY2NYM5|B7 nods
[22:10:58] <NYY2NYM6|B7> Well, for most of that fight...Ty Lee was still on Azula's side
[22:11:12] <Ultimate> Right
[22:11:40] <NYY2NYM6|B7> Now, with Mai...
[22:11:49] <NYY2NYM6|B7> She had dealt with Zuko earlier...
[22:13:49] <NYY2NYM6|B7> What do you think they talked about?
[22:14:53] <Ultimate> I'm sure Zuko persisted in reasoning with her, trying to explain his conflicting circumstances and why he left.
[22:15:27] <NYY2NYM6|B7> Whatever it was..
[22:15:31] <NYY2NYM6|B7> It must have worked well
[22:15:49] <Ultimate> Yep, because in the end, it was him over Azula.
[22:16:32] <NYY2NYM6|B7> It's some of those details that unfortunately fell victim to there only being 22-23 minutes of episode...
[22:16:50] <Ultimate> Yeah...
[22:17:28] <NYY2NYM6|B7> I am going to say that Zuko made it clear that he left her behind to save /her/
[22:17:59] <Ultimate> Perhaps
[22:18:36] <NYY2NYM6|T8> And that made Mai realize that he cared for her more than anything, in turn, it made her happier than it appeared
[22:19:18] <Ultimate> That could very well be the case.
[22:20:26] <NYY2NYM6|T8> Now...what of Ty Lee, and what prompted her to betray Azula...
[22:21:33] <Ultimate> She probably finally understood that she followed Azula out of fear and decided that it wasn't worth it at all, not if her friend was going to be hurt.
[22:22:24] <NYY2NYM6|T8> Also...some believe it was out of concern for Zuko...
[22:22:50] <Ultimate> That could also be a factor.
[22:23:09] <NYY2NYM6|T8> Remember ofc that Ty Lee has known Zuko as long as she has Mai [22:23:23] <Ultimate> Right
[22:24:28] <NYY2NYM6|T8> And imo, her events here lend more creedence to the theory that the latter half their friendship was not true...
[22:25:01] <Ultimate> -nods-
[22:27:15] <NYY2NYM6|T8> Another thing I'd like to look over...what future impacts would the latter half of the friendship have on Ty Lee...
[22:28:05] <Ultimate> Another interesting thing to consider... I'm sure it had some impact on her.
[22:28:36] <NYY4NYM6|T8> Yeah, her future...all her interactions...
[22:29:00] <NYY4NYM6|T8> I would think though that if she joined Team Avatar, they would help her talk everything out
[22:29:13] <NYY4NYM6|T8> Especially someone like Katara
[22:29:42] <Ultimate> I'm sure they would and I'm sure she'd eventually regain full trust in others.
[22:31:34] <NYY4NYM6|T8> How hard would it be for her to talk it out...
[22:33:27] <Ultimate> It may be hard to open up to someone about those kinds of things; it is a lot really... But she probably would.
[22:34:34] <NYY4NYM6|B8> We certainly are getting a lot of ideas here
[22:35:34] <NYY4NYM6|B8> Give me a minute, I got to get this all down
[22:35:40] <Ultimate> Sure
[22:37:24] <NYY4NYM6|B8> Done
[22:38:32] <NYY4NYM6|B8> I am sure you would also agree here - T.L. joining Azula in 1-203 was totally out of fear
[22:39:17] <Ultimate> Of course
[22:39:33] <NYY4NYM6|B8> I mean, we saw Ty Lee's looks during the whole performance
[22:40:09] <Ultimate> It was definitely clear that she didn't want to go, but felt very much obligated to.
[22:40:38] <NYY4NYM6|B8> I mean, "Azula called louder..."
[22:40:45] <NYY4NYM6|B8> Like, suddenly...
[22:41:02] <Ultimate> Right
[22:42:28] <NYY4NYM6|B8> So let's see, no real significant events until The Drill...
[22:43:33] <Ultimate> Right... There's Mai who's starting to break away a bit and Ty Lee is still fully following Azula.
[22:44:18] <NYY4NYM6|B8> I mean, Mai's statement about shooting lightning...
[22:44:27] <NYY4NYM6|B8> Some take it as a joke...but then came TBR
[22:44:43] <Ultimate> Yeah...
[22:44:43] <NYY4NYM6|B8> Certainly appears not to be a joke
[22:45:05] <NYY4NYM6|B8> You have Azula saying outright "You know the consequences" or whatever it was
[22:45:50] <Ultimate> Indeed
[22:46:03] <NYY4NYM6|B8> And Mai "I love Zuko more than I fear you"
[22:46:48] <NYY4NYM6|T9> Ty Lee looked scared when Mai and Azula confronted each othr...
[22:46:54] <NYY4NYM6|T9> *other
[22:47:10] <Ultimate> Yeah... she didn't know what to expect.
[22:47:23] <NYY4NYM6|T9> She had to make her own decision...
[22:47:43] <NYY4NYM6|T9> And at that end...she decided to stand up to Azula
[22:48:34] <Ultimate> Yep... And thus the two freed themselves from her control and her mental state began spiralling downward.
[22:48:42] <NYY4NYM6|T9> Indeed
[22:48:53] <NYY4NYM6|T9> As we saw, Azula realized she lost that sense of control
[22:50:18] <Ultimate> I wonder if the two felt any degree of pity for her in the end... [22:50:33] <NYY4NYM6|T9> I'm going to say that Mai, given her personality, didn't
[22:50:38] <NYY4NYM6|T9> But Ty Lee...
[22:50:44] <NYY4NYM6|T9> It's up for debate
[22:51:03] <Ultimate> She could very well have given her kind-hearted nature.
[22:51:20] <NYY4NYM6|T9> It could go either way
[22:51:30] <NYY4NYM6|T9> She may be upset for all the fear that was inspired in her
[22:51:40] <NYY4NYM6|T9> But then again, as you said...her personality is more forgiving
[22:53:11] <NYY4NYM6|T9> To be honest...your opinion may be more likely
[22:53:32] <Ultimate> -shrugs- Who knows...
[22:53:59] <NYY4NYM6|T9> Maybe it's something that could get a touch-on in the future
[22:54:10] <Ultimate> Yeah, maybe
[22:54:11] <NYY4NYM6|T9> I heard there may be more comics beyond The Promise
[22:54:23] <Ultimate> Really? Cool.
[22:55:20] <Ultimate> I should go now.
[22:55:29] <NYY4NYM6|T9> Awww, okay
[22:55:39] <NYY4NYM6|T9> I'll be seeing you tomorrow at some point?
[22:56:12] <Ultimate> Yeah
[22:56:50] <NYY4NYM6|T9> We ofc can talk through 11am...for the finale I won't be except for the occasional look at main
[22:57:26] <Ultimate> Yeah...
[22:57:46] <NYY4NYM6|T9> I've got the talk saved so we can finish it off tomorrow
[22:57:52] <Ultimate> Okay
[22:58:08] <NYY4NYM6|T9> For now, good night, lil' sis
[22:58:21] <Ultimate> Good night, big brother
[22:58:25] * NYY4NYM6|T9 hugs
[22:58:35] <Ultimate> -hugs back-
[20:40:56] <BolinFanboy> You I think believed that Ty Lee would forgive Azula
[20:41:37] <Ultimate> Right
[20:42:22] <BolinFanboy> I could see it...Ty Lee is definitely not one to hold grudges
[20:44:44] <BolinFanboy> As for hints about their relationships....we discussed 1-203, 1-213, and 1-315...any other hints?
[20:45:39] <Ultimate> Well, I'm thinking that Azula might have cared about Ty Lee to some extent, seeing how she apologized to her in "The Beach", after upsetting her.
[20:46:13] <Ultimate> That's out of character for her, so that says something...
[20:47:07] <BolinFanboy> Here's the problem though...we go on to later in the episode when they're all talking
[20:47:11] <Ultimate> But then again, she also laughed when Ty Lee was called a circus freak...
[20:47:17] <BolinFanboy> Yep
[20:47:35] <BolinFanboy> And Azula seemed like "Here we go 9_9" when Ty Lee told her backstory
[20:48:26] <Ultimate> Right... So that contradicts the possibility that she did care for her somewhat...
[20:49:27] <BolinFanboy> What I'm thinking, in light of this...
[20:49:40] <BolinFanboy> Was Azula only friendly to Ty Lee in that moment because she wanted Chan so badly?
[20:50:06] <Ultimate> That's actually a good point...
[20:50:51] <Ultimate> It could've been that she wanted Chan and saw Ty Lee as her only help in the situation...
[20:50:58] <BolinFanboy> Remember ofc the moment beforehand
[20:51:06] <BolinFanboy> Ty Lee was surrounded by a group a guys
[20:51:10] <Ultimate> And she didn't want to risk losing that, so yeah...
[20:51:15] <Ultimate> Right...
[20:51:28] <BolinFanboy> And God knows Azula was all over Chan
[20:51:45] <Ultimate> Yeah...
[20:52:57] <BolinFanboy> So what do you think? Azula being nice to Ty Lee in that moment - was it out of legit care or was she just that desparate for Chan or whatever?
[20:55:21] <Ultimate> It might have been a little bit of both, really... She could have felt bad in that moment for saying those harsh things to Ty Lee and have wanted to seek out her help.
[20:57:34] <BolinFanboy> She does seem quick to apologize...
[21:00:11] <Ultimate> You'd really have to be inside Azula's head, in the end, to know for sure...
[21:00:21] <BolinFanboy> I could be more inclined to go with the original...
[21:00:26] <BolinFanboy> That is, Azula being sorry
[21:00:30] <BolinFanboy> Truly
[21:01:26] <Ultimate> -nods- I'm more inclined to think that way, too, although you do bring up an interesting motive concerning Chan.
[21:01:36] * BolinFanboy nods
[21:02:10] <BolinFanboy> And at least...in the past, we know there was more of a real friendship
[21:02:25] <Ultimate> Right
[21:05:31] <BolinFanboy> I wish the girls had a bit more screentime...think about it, there was only a handful of episodes
[21:06:11] <Ultimate> That's true...
[21:08:07] <BolinFanboy> Anyhow...one other thing we have not explored...Ty Lee liked Azula to an extent too
[21:08:22] <BolinFanboy> 1-219
[21:08:47] <Ultimate> Yeah, she did admire the princess...
[21:09:34] <BolinFanboy> And this was said even after the first two cases we discussed, 1-203 and 213
[21:10:42] <Ultimate> I think that for the most part, she didn't want to believe that Azula was controlling her through fear and she convinced herself that they really did have a solid friendship because that's what she truly wanted.
[21:11:04] <Ultimate> But then she realized what was really the case in the Boiling Rock.
[21:11:09] <BolinFanboy> Possiblre
[21:11:22] <BolinFanboy> *Possible - Ty Lee's personality seems to be more for the optimistic side
[21:12:53] <BolinFanboy> It likely took that live witnessing of Mai threatening Azula to catch the realization
[21:12:58] <BolinFanboy> Erhm
[21:13:01] <BolinFanboy> Reverse that
[21:13:03] <BolinFanboy> lol
[21:13:33] <Ultimate> Heh, yeah...
[21:14:23] <BolinFanboy> But in any event I see your point
[21:16:22] <BolinFanboy> So, that compliment, you think was just to ward off any bad thoughts about her?
[21:18:03] <Ultimate> It could have been. I think at that point she did view their friendship as genuine and without the control factor - again, through convincing herself of that - and she did mean it to some extent.
[21:21:41] <BolinFanboy> Unfortunately, there is no clear way to see her body language in that comment
[21:22:01] <BolinFanboy> I like to study that for when I'm seeing if people mean what they sya
[21:22:04] <BolinFanboy> *say
[21:22:32] <Ultimate> -nods- True...
[21:22:57] <BolinFanboy> She is very complimenting of Azula in S2
[21:28:32] <BolinFanboy> So...
[21:28:49] <BolinFanboy> How about Mai? We've kind of negelected her
[21:29:41] <Ultimate> Well, we thought that there wasn't much of a chance of her forgiving Azula for all that she has done...
[21:30:00] <BolinFanboy> Yes that is true
[21:30:48] <Ultimate> Azula didn't have to scare her into joining up with her in 203... But then again, she was willing to do anything to get out of Omashu, as she stated herself.
[21:31:22] <BolinFanboy> Yeah, she hated it...
[21:33:13] <BolinFanboy> She also did not seem to have the fear of Azula either
[21:33:19] <BolinFanboy> See 1-213 and 1-315
[21:33:31] <Ultimate> Right
[21:33:50] <BolinFanboy> And tbh...I don't think she liked Azula all that much
[21:35:21] <Ultimate> True, she never displayed any true admiration for Azula like Ty Lee did...
[21:35:55] <BolinFanboy> In 1-302...you know the part where Azula pulled Mai away from Zuko?
[21:36:49] <Ultimate> Yeah, and the whole thing with the poisonous glare out of the corner of her eye.
[21:37:06] * BolinFanboy nods
[21:37:48] <BolinFanboy> To me...I think Mai knew something about Azula...something not so great
[21:38:57] <BolinFanboy> I mean...was Azula trying to manipulate Zuko then?
[21:39:28] <Ultimate> Perhaps...
[21:40:22] <BolinFanboy> We also saw Mai willingly betray Azula for Zuko's sake
[21:40:59] <Ultimate> Yep
[21:42:15] <BolinFanboy> Recalling her line in 1-213..."She can shoot all the lightning she wants at me..." It seems like Mai knew what Azula was up to
[21:43:49] <Ultimate> Yeah, I believe she did secretly know Azula's true nature and intentions. It just all came to a climax in 316.
[21:47:57] <BolinFanboy> Sorry, got sidetracked for a minute
[21:48:10] <BolinFanboy> Now then...how's this for an interesting point -
[21:48:16] <BolinFanboy> If she knew...why not tell Ty Lee?
[21:49:57] <Ultimate> She could have hidden the truth to protect Ty Lee. She probably saw that Ty Lee did admire Azula and didn't want to mar that image and cause any upset to her friend.
[21:51:38] <BolinFanboy> Then perhaps she cared for Ty Lee more than what was given off
[21:52:04] <Ultimate> I think she did care for Ty Lee, even if she didn't show it much.
[21:53:05] * BolinFanboy nods
[21:53:21] <BolinFanboy> Ty Lee was totally her opposite but...
[21:53:45] <BolinFanboy> She did seem more caring for her, seeing 1-219, she warned TL to keep quiet
[21:55:12] <Ultimate> -nods-
[17:38:47] <KataraFanboy> So...Mai, we know she did not have the same fear of Azula
[17:38:51] <KataraFanboy> That Ty Lee did
[17:38:59] <Ultimate> True
[17:39:29] <KataraFanboy> And she even defied Azula twice...the second being the much larger-scale happening
[17:40:12] <Ultimate> Yep...
[17:40:48] <KataraFanboy> Mai's thought process in The Boiling Rock...it was clear that for all that had happened, she was still set on protecting Zuko
[17:40:54] <KataraFanboy> And she would do /anything/
[17:41:20] <Ultimate> Right, that was evident.
[17:43:30] <KataraFanboy> It's strange about Mai...she didn't seem like "much" on the surface
[17:43:36] <KataraFanboy> But, she had a fearless side of her
[17:45:16] <Ultimate> -nods- As some will say, the quietest can be the strongest sometimes...
[17:45:52] <KataraFanboy> And as I said last night, I don't think she liked Azula at all, and knew of her motives
[17:46:56] <Ultimate> Agreed...
[17:47:27] <KataraFanboy> So now, let's move to the final part of the equation...Azula
[17:47:37] <KataraFanboy> How she felt about things
[17:49:12] <Ultimate> I think for the most part, she felt in control and secure about things, that she did have a good grip on her friends.
[17:49:41] <KataraFanboy> She was also sent out on a mission...to get Zuko and Iroh, and eventually Team Avatar...and her focus became that mission
[17:51:17] <KataraFanboy> And at some point...instead of seeing them as friends, she saw them as tools
[17:54:06] <KataraFanboy> So like, what happened? Was she just out for glory, friendships be darned?
[17:54:20] <KataraFanboy> Because she wasn't quite the same around them years before...
[17:55:09] <Ultimate> I think she really was hinged on this mission, remembered her old friends, Mai and Ty Lee, and decided they would be a good asset in achieving her goal.
[17:55:54] <KataraFanboy> She was definitely in on the mission
[17:56:00] <KataraFanboy> In tight
[17:56:34] <KataraFanboy> And it seems she lost her care for them...
[17:56:42] <KataraFanboy> Save for the 1-305 scene with TL
[17:57:55] <Ultimate> Yeah, I think her desire for glory became of much more importance than her friends and their feelings...
[17:59:02] <KataraFanboy> And then...we move to her mental being
[17:59:15] <KataraFanboy> Her control over everything, especially her friends, was important to it
[18:08:46] <KataraFanboy> Back - and so, once that superiority was gone...
[18:09:03] <KataraFanboy> She no longer felt like she could have that right to rule...which sent her downward
[18:11:08] <Ultimate> Exactly - she thought she could absolutely depend on them as well to be there, but they betrayed that trust. And that's why she lost trust in everyone else afterwards, banishing people left and right.
[18:11:33] <KataraFanboy> Indeed
[18:11:49] <KataraFanboy> She basically became "If I can't trust them, I can't trust anyone"
[18:14:21] <KataraFanboy> In my opinion - she did not care about them as people, she only cared about them as tools
[18:15:19] <Ultimate> -nods-
[18:15:36] <KataraFanboy> And now... . [18:15:44] <KataraFanboy> Here is where it gets interesting...
[18:16:08] <KataraFanboy> Let's say one day in the future...Ty Lee and Mai get to visit Azula again...how would it go
[18:16:10] <KataraFanboy> ?
[18:17:00] <Ultimate> I don't know how warmly Mai would react, given her nature... She may be quite closed off, at least initially.
[18:17:45] <KataraFanboy> I don't think Mai would be willing at all...she seems to harbor far more resentment
[18:17:55] <Ultimate> Ty Lee may be more sympathetic and open to Azula, however, because she is naturally more caring. She may be wary, but more open.
[18:23:09] <KataraFanboy> I think Ty Lee might still want the best for Azula...she did like her more than Mai...
[18:23:58] <Ultimate> I'm sure that she would like to see Azula recover and begin anew...
[18:24:25] * KataraFanboy nods
[18:24:31] <KataraFanboy> And would be willing to help...
[18:24:41] <Ultimate> That, too.
[18:24:55] <KataraFanboy> Now then, the big question..
[18:25:01] <KataraFanboy> Would Azula be willing to talk to them?
[18:25:23] <Ultimate> Depends on her mental state, really...
[18:25:53] <KataraFanboy> Would she hate them for what they did or would it smooth out over time...
[18:26:58] <Ultimate> I could see it going both ways... Initially, she could resent them for abandoning her like that, but perhaps with some more time recovering and all, she could smooth things over.
[18:27:29] <KataraFanboy> I definitely think she'd be resentful at first...Azula was so angry as she plumetted
[18:27:55] <KataraFanboy> She could blame them and Zuko for sending her down
[18:28:09] <Ultimate> Right
[18:29:05] <KataraFanboy> Another factor could be the quality of her treatment...poor quality might not help her be smoothed out
[18:29:20] <Ultimate> That's also a factor, yes...
[18:29:26] <KataraFanboy> But solid treatment - and I'm sure Zuko would go for this - could bring her out of this rough state
[18:29:47] <Ultimate> It definitely could
[18:31:20] <KataraFanboy> But yeah, just how much she damaged her relationships, and how much views of her are altered is yet to be seen
[18:31:33] <KataraFanboy> But we've certainly put forth good ideas
[18:32:05] <Ultimate> Yep... It would be nice to have some more insight on the whole thing...
[18:32:48] <KataraFanboy> Guess we will find out at some point...there is a new comic series coming out called
[18:32:51] <KataraFanboy> "The Search"
[18:33:27] <Ultimate> So I've heard
[18:35:30] <KataraFanboy> Well, what is known...Azula did basically lose her care for her friends...now, she may need it more than ever
[18:36:00] <Ultimate> True... and she may still be able to get it back. Who knows?
[18:36:24] <KataraFanboy> It could take a long time...
[18:37:25] <Ultimate> Of course, these things don't happen automatically; but if one is willing to move on at some point, they can.
[18:37:55] <KataraFanboy> Can she accept that she has been reduced to what she is?
[18:38:06] <KataraFanboy> Acceptance is the first step to a recovery
[18:39:37] <Ultimate> That may take a while... It can be hard accepting where you have ended up in life... But she could eventually...
[18:41:19] <KataraFanboy> I think she will
[18:42:11] <KataraFanboy> She's shown some weakness before...
[18:43:43] <Ultimate> Indeed, so it's possible.
[18:44:09] <KataraFanboy> You know, there's one more thing I'm thinking of, and it connects back to Mai
[18:44:23] <KataraFanboy> Although Mai showed more of a willingness to disobey Azula...
[18:44:38] <KataraFanboy> Throught season two, she did fight willingly for her
[18:44:56] <KataraFanboy> I don't think it means much, but...
[18:45:25] <Ultimate> She was probably loyal to Azula to some extent.
[18:45:50] <Ultimate> Out of fear? That can be questioned.
[18:45:52] <KataraFanboy> Well, it did seem like they both were...Ty Lee out of fear...but Mai...for what?
[18:46:15] <Ultimate> Maybe it was just a desire for some excitement.
[18:46:33] <KataraFanboy> True...how many times did we hear "I'm bored"
[18:46:35] <KataraFanboy> from her
[18:46:52] <Ultimate> Heh, yeah, so I'm thinking that could be it.
[18:47:27] <KataraFanboy> There may have been some fear...it wasn't until things got really icky for her that she defied too
[18:47:39] <KataraFanboy> But she was also less vulnerable to it thanks to her personality
[18:48:34] <Ultimate> Yeah, but it could have been a bit of fear certainly... I think anyone would fear someone like Azula to some extent.
[18:48:50] <KataraFanboy> Actually
[18:48:58] <KataraFanboy> She outright stated she had a fear of Azula...1-315
[18:49:09] <Ultimate> Oh right...
[18:49:18] <KataraFanboy> I know, I forgot too until then
[18:49:19] <Ultimate> So yeah, then she did.
[18:49:58] <KataraFanboy> Now, she didn't join her out of fear...she wanted out of Omashu, as we've said
[18:50:13] <Ultimate> Right
[18:50:31] <KataraFanboy> There are a couple possibilities...
[18:50:40] <KataraFanboy> Perhaps, Ty Lee told Mai what had happened to her
[18:50:45] <KataraFanboy> AT the circus
[18:51:05] <Ultimate> Could be, she did seem curious about Ty Lee coming to Omashu with Azula...
[18:51:31] <KataraFanboy> Indeed
[18:52:02] <KataraFanboy> So with Mai, we have more possibilities it seems
[18:55:33] <KataraFanboy> So, what do you think? Anything else that can be covered with these three girls?
[18:57:48] <Ultimate> Hm... I'm not sure what else... We covered a lot of ground...
[18:58:35] <KataraFanboy> Well, how about this
[18:58:56] <KataraFanboy> Later, I'll start organizing into a blog...when done, I'll have you look at it ofc, and if you think there's more we can cover, we'll do so
[18:59:12] <Ultimate> Alright